Excessive Body Roll

Unco_Tomato

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Matt
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1996 White Manual Legnum w/ FL Kit
Hey guys,

About 9 months ago now I replaced my stock suspension setup with some Tanabe Sustec Pro Coilovers. I have also replaced LCA's and Steve has gone over everything else and replaced anything that needed it. I also have Selby Adjustable Swaybars installed, and they are on the stiffest setting. I have new wheels which will go on when my current tyres wear out (hopefully in the next 3-5 months). The current tyres are 16" with 195's, and the new setup will be 18" with 235's.

My problem, is that even though my car should now be handling better than it was before, the steering feels a little sloppier than it did, and I also think i get excessive body roll (or it hasn't improved all that much over stock at least).

I was watching this video today, and about half way through, the guy explains that lowering your car changes the center of gravity (I knew this already), but for that reason can change your body roll for the worse depending on the new angle of your control arms.

I am just wondering if anyone has any further ideas as to how i can clean up the handling of my car a bit. If I take my car to a suspension shop will they be able to help me out? Or will they simply charge me $50-$100 to take a look at it and then send me on my way?

EDIT: A good description of how my handling feels when taking corners hard is how Glen20 described his old Bilsteins over in this thread. "I was running the worn Bilsteins with lowered springs that came with the car. They used to ride quite well for the same ride height I've got now, but loaded up, mid corner, the car used to "lean" really hard on the outside tyres and it felt a like the tyre was almost being peeled off the rim as the weight seemed to be over the top and outside of the contact patch."
 

jungle

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Please tell me you had a wheel alignment after fitting the suspension......

What are the spring rates, camber and toe front and rear.
If you can't answer that then you have bigger problems
 

Unco_Tomato

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I had an alignment, twice actually as I figured the first place hadn't done it correctly.

Spring rates are 6/4

Camber I am actually not sure, I think 1.5 degree negative?

Toe I figured was set at the wheel alignment, so again, not sure of the number.
 

TME_Steve

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i think your issue is mostly tyres and wheel offset.
 

jungle

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I had an alignment, twice actually as I figured the first place hadn't done it correctly.

Spring rates are 6/4
They're fine.

Camber I am actually not sure, I think 1.5 degree negative?
Front and rear will not be the same. It will be on the report. The lower the car the more neg camber it'll have, the rear will be at least neg 1.5, at a reasonable height, if you haven't done the "rear mod" then it'll most likely be closer to neg 2
Toe I figured was set at the wheel alignment, so again, not sure of the number.
No they will set it to what ever you want or they will try and find info on the vehicle which 99% of places won't have so it'll end up whatever the operator thinks is good. He's taking a guess and again won't necessarily be what the car needs or you want.

I wouldn't be surprised if it has 4mm toe in rear and 2mm toe in front. Be interested to hear what it actually ends up being.

Look on the printout, it'll all be on there.
 

Unco_Tomato

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Cheers, will have a look at it all tonight and report back.
 

Unco_Tomato

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1996 White Manual Legnum w/ FL Kit
OK, so I actually took the car to get an alignment done on the way home, just to see if it was out and different from what my previous alignment sheet said (mind you that was about 9 months ago to be fair).

So 9 month old numbers off the sheet:

Front Axle:
RH Toe: -1.3mm
LH Toe: -1.3mm
RH Camber: -1.01 Degree
LH Camber: -1.30 Degree (why is this number different?)
Set Back: -0.17 deg

Rear Axle:
RH Toe: +0mm
LH Toe: +0mm
RH Camber: -2.3 Degree
LH Camber: -2.3 Degree
Set Back: 0.18 Degree
Thrust Angle: -0.00 Degree
Track Difference: -0.10Degree

What the Numbers were today when i took the car in.

Front Axle:
RH Toe: -1.3mm
LH Toe: -6.1mm
RH Camber: -1.00 Degree
LH Camber: -1.34 Degree (again WTF?)
Set Back: -0.19 deg

Rear Axle:
RH Toe: +0mm
LH Toe: -0.6mm
RH Camber: -2.32 Degree
LH Camber: -2.21 Degree
Set Back: -0.18 Degree
Thrust Angle: -0.02 Degree
Track Difference: -0.07 Degree

The new set numbers:

Front Axle:
RH Toe: +1.1mm
LH Toe: +1.1mm
RH Camber: -1.07 Degree
LH Camber: -1.30 Degree (why do they keep setting this different? Is to it counteract a drivers weight in corners????)
Set Back: -0.21 deg

Rear Axle:
RH Toe: +1.6mm
LH Toe: +1.6mm
RH Camber: -2.40 Degree
LH Camber: -2.14 Degree
Set Back: -0.18 Degree
Thrust Angle: -0.00 Degree
Track Difference: -0.10 Degree

I am still confused about the camber settings as they aren't identical on both sides of the car. Is this something hard for a wheel / suspension shop to set? Or is it just not that important to get the numbers perfectly matched?

On the drive home it felt infinitely better, the toe was fucked, as you predicted Simon. Not sure of the significance of the other numbers.
 

BFun

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Ben
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'99 Legnum VR-4 Type-S
Camber isn't adjustable from what I remember. Although I'm also curious as to why the big difference. If I were to take a stab in the dark it could be to compensate for the angle of the road? But thats what the difference in toe is usually for... isn't it?

Maybe I'm way off....

And wow -6.1mm LH Toe lol
 

Dice

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I don't know enough to comment on the toe changes but did you take it to the same shop both times? Interested in why front/rear toe was changed to +1 the second time yet your first sheet showed only front toe -1.

Camber is not adjustable on our cars so any difference you have is not intended. My Legnum has identical camber right to left for front and rear (1.5 and 2.0).
 

Unco_Tomato

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Different shop. 1st shop was Brooke's Tyre and Steering on Church Street, Nth Parramatta.

Second shop was Jax Tyres, Mona Vale.
 

Unco_Tomato

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I wonder if the coilovers "bedding in" was the reason for the big change in my Front LH wheel Toe misalignment?
 

Schneider

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Pothole would have caused the misalignment. Camber differences are in acceptable range and stock cars have no adjustment. Your car should feel more stable with toe-in now-what you observed. Most places add toe-in to offset the "ridiculous camber" we run on the street - stability + treadlife. Yes anything over 1 degree on the street is considered unnecessary.

I agree with Steve's comment, minimised track and huge profile squishy tyres wouldn't be helping. The springs may not be the best either - assumption as most off the shelf coilovers use variable rate coils not linear ones.
 

jungle

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Het Matt,

I gather the alignment after you installed the new suspension the car turned very well? With the front toe out and zero on the rear, it should have been very responsive, but "hard" to keep in a straight line?

The new settings will have "dulled" that somewhat., but are perfectly acceptable- as long as you like it!

Camber. The front camber is not adjustable, Without fitting some offset bushes. The height you had the front suspension at directly affects the camber, the lower the car, the more neg camber you will have.

If they were new springs you will expect them to settle a little with use which change toe and camber as it gets lower on the front, just affect camber on the rear.

Yes potholes and some times just general use will cause the toe will change. It's worthwhile throwing a wheel alignment at the car every 12 months even if it still feels fine. Toe changes can sometimes go unnoticed but will affect tyre wear and life.

I don't see how offset would affect tram lining. Worn parts will
 

TME_Steve

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you sure it's all the same height on all corners, that'd explain the camber differences, it didn't feel like a car with funny heights to drive though, just felt soft. fair point about variable rate, if they're 6/4 variable, it may have a fair bit of movement first. Still say tyres and track.
 

pretzil

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Did you reinforce the swaybar link bracket points when you installed them?

Maybe the swaybar was too stiff and the bracket has failed?
 

Unco_Tomato

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Nah, Steve reinforced all that.

I'd guess my height isn't set perfect on all corners (just measured with a ruler), so it needs to be corner balanced/weighed. And yes, Steve you are right as you know my current wheels and tyres are absolute rubbish. I still can't justify throwing out 80% tread tyres though...
 
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