TCL Mysteries, or is my Legnum just screwing with me

Discussion in 'Wheels, Tyres, Suspension and Brakes' started by GavDaniels, Sep 13, 2007.

  1. GavDaniels

    GavDaniels Leaving Skid Marks Lifetime Member

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    2000 Galant VR-4 Type V (Race Car) (regretful sale)
    Hey guys,

    I have been battling with my TCS system since I got my Legnum. When I test drove the car, I saw the TCL operation indicator flash. After driving the car for a couple of days I began work things out, and believed that the TCL was not working, flicking the TCL switch didnt seem to do anything.
    I chased some stuff around, took the switch out and tested it but still got nowhere. On monday I noticed that the SRS and ABS lights also didn't come on when the ignition was turned on (All the indicators, ABS, TCL, AYC and Engine are supposed to come on and go out after a short time when the ignition is first switched on). So I pulled the instrument cluster out to find that most of the globes were blown. I swapped some around o(Who needs the indicators and lights anyway) and put the dash back together, and then I had flashing lights, Thought all was good, but I was wrong.
    The SRS light never went out, this I am putting down to the fact that somebody changed the Nardi wheel for another one. Need to fix that.
    But after 15 minutes of driving, the ABS and TCL OFF light came on and stayed on. The other TCL light started flashing.
    I got home and plugged in the EvoScan to see what I could see (will bring this to the next wash meet for those who are interested). The only error I got in the software was relating to the Vehicle Speed Sensor (It is listed as being attached to the air cleaner assembly, but not that I can find it Anybody know where it is). But the ABS and TCL lights started flashing out codes. But some of the codes coming out of the system were garbage (or so I thought). I could find no listing of a code 47 in the manual.

    More investigation, and examination of the ABS hydralic unit made no sense either, it looked nothing like the service manual, or the unit in the factory recall.

    So what is going on? well I finally worked it out.

    My 1997 Type S Legnum is fitted with Active Stability Control.

    I pulled the tray out of the centre console, and there I found the pitch and G sensors for the ASC. Now the codes made sense.

    But now I am not happy, looks like the ABS Hydralic unit is stuffed. Too dark now to begin metering the solanoids and alike out.

    It also explains why I got some sideways movement out of the car wash on Tuesday night.

    Am not happy.

    Regards

    Gavin
     
  2. SiliconAngel

    SiliconAngel 1 AYC Bar

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    Ah the fun of second hand imports. Sorry to hear of your troubles Gav - that's a pretty raw deal! Hopefully you'll be able to figure it out without too much time, trouble and cost... Good luck!!
     
  3. jmo

    jmo Guest

    Well at least you are the right man for the job Gav, you have already been deeper into the elec systems of the car then i would even want to know about. Hope Tech sporst can shed some light on your problem
     
  4. GavDaniels

    GavDaniels Leaving Skid Marks Lifetime Member

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    Hey Jason,

    Was going to go and see Tech Sport yesterday, but when I found all the blown globes wednesday night, I found their email address and let them know I wouldn't be coming. Now I wish I had.

    I would recommend that all Galant / Legnum owners check the power on checks for all systems to ensure that all globes are fine and that systems are working. I will shoot a pic of the dash at ignition on so people can see what they are looking for.

    Time to go and meter out the ABS solaniods.

    Regards

    Gavin
     
  5. snickells

    snickells Leaving Skid Marks Lifetime Member

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    You bought the car from SSV yea? If so, take it back man. They sold you a dud missing some major safety gear.
     
  6. GavDaniels

    GavDaniels Leaving Skid Marks Lifetime Member

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    Hey Steve,

    I am going to drop in on them this morning.

    Have pulled the connectors for the ABS Hydralic unit, and measured the resistance of all the solanoids. All of them are .2 to .5 ohm above the maximum resistance, which is obviously why the ABS check fails.

    For those with the TCL switch, pull the bottom out of the centre console (is easy, has no screws) and see if you have 2 electrically connected modules in there. If so, you have the ASC system. If not you have the plain TCL.

    Regards

    Gavin
     
  7. mitchy

    mitchy Leaving Skid Marks

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    sorry, but whats the difference?
     
  8. hawks

    hawks Leaving Skid Marks

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    TCL is only on the Series 1's I believe ?
     
  9. GavDaniels

    GavDaniels Leaving Skid Marks Lifetime Member

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    ABS / TCL / ASC

    Hey Guys,

    Through investigation, that information is not correct.

    The ABS system was standard on the VR4's, The TCL and ASC were options. I originally didn't know that the ASC was available on pre 1999 vehicles, but it appears that it was an option for the Type S (only because I have a Type S brochure).

    The Traction Control System has a sensor behind the steering wheel, and links to the ABS wheel sensors, Acelerator pedal and ECU to be able to make changes to the speed of the vehicle, if the system notes slip at any of the wheels. The TCL system can communicate with the ABS, but only to get sensor information and effectively request the ABS to do something.

    The Active Stability Control System ties the Traction Control and ABS systems together into a single functional system. The ASC ECU has the same sensors as the TCL, but also has a G force sensor and a yaw sensor to know more of what the car is doing body wise, and has direct control of each wheel's ABS controls so it can also alter the braking of an individual wheel in order to assist in regaining control of a sliding vehicle.

    Basically for the upgrade from TCL to ASC, there is a different ABS Hydralic Solanoid assembly, sensors under the centre console and a different ECU where the TCL ECU is.

    Hope this helps explain things a bit.

    Regards

    Gavin
     
  10. leebutts

    leebutts 1 AYC Bar

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    So how does ASC have any interaction with AYC?

    Sounds like ASC kicks in when you've gone past 3 AYC bars :)

    cheers

    Lee
     
  11. Sydo

    Sydo Leaving Skid Marks

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    * Acronym-overload *
     
  12. bradc

    bradc 1 AYC Bar

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    Only prefacelift auto's came with asc+tcl really. I've never seen a facelift with it, but it was officially an option. Note it was only ever available on autos!

    The asc is different to ayc. AYC is to help you get out of a corner as quickly as possible by shifting the power around to help quench understeer. ASC kicks in when you're sliding, in my experience mostly around roundabouts and on gravel roads :D You can really feel it hit the brakes hard when you're sliding.
     
  13. SiliconAngel

    SiliconAngel 1 AYC Bar

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    Sorry Gav, not trying to hijack your thread here!

    So the Active Stability Control (ASC) system basically just forces braking when detecting tire slip? Given Gav's description, it doesn't sound like there's any simple way to turn this on and off like traction control in some vehicles? Personally I prefer to have complete control of my vehicle - its highly unlikely to ever be sliding unless I WANT it to ;)

    But then, from what Brad said it doesn't sound like I'm going to have to worry about it anyway! :rolleyes:
     
  14. bradc

    bradc 1 AYC Bar

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    The tcl can be turned off via the button, but the asc is always running unless you rip the fuse out. It is quite good fun though, especially on gravel. Wrench the car one way as hard as possible, pull it back the other way as it starts to slide, feel the brakes kicking in, and the car just straightens itself out again, everytime!
     
  15. trounced

    trounced Leaving Skid Marks

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    lol i am completly confused now as sydo said
    * Acronym-overload * how do we know what we do or dont have ?
    mine is a series 1 type s, i dont have it yet so i cant look yet but will like to know when it gets here
     
  16. bradc

    bradc 1 AYC Bar

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    all prefacelifts have ayc. your car is a manual, therefore it can't have asc+tcl
     
  17. Sydo

    Sydo Leaving Skid Marks

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    Mine does. :p
     
  18. GavDaniels

    GavDaniels Leaving Skid Marks Lifetime Member

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    Hey Guys,

    The easiest way to tell if you have the ASC, is to open the centre console and pop out the bottom. If there are sensors in there, then you have the ASC. If not then you have the standard TCL (Providing you have the TCL switch). The TCL and ASC were options on the Pre Facelift Type S. But for the Legnum's it appears that the options were mixed and matched more.
    Also from what I know, the Side Airbags were also standard with the Leather interior (Mine has them), and were options with the fabric interior.

    I will finish downsampling the brochure, and PDF it to put in the doco section.

    Regards

    Gavin
     
  19. bradc

    bradc 1 AYC Bar

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    There is no such thing as tcl without asc! Apart from the switch and the lights on the dash that come up when you turn the car on, it is just as easy to pop the bonnet and have a look for a black plastic canister at the top right (passenger side) next to the A pillar that has all the markings on it.
     
  20. GavDaniels

    GavDaniels Leaving Skid Marks Lifetime Member

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    Hello Brad,

    Sorry, but you have your TLA's around the wrong way.

    ASC is an expansion of the TCL system. There are VR-4 Legnum's with TCL only, but you can't have the ASC system without TCL, as the ASC ECU replaces the TCL ECU.

    In a car with ASC I don't know if turning off the TCL switch disables the ASC as well, need a wiring diagram to determine this.

    The thing with the ASC system is that several fault codes generated from it will also disable the ABS system also.

    Regards

    Gavin
     

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