- Location
- Warrnambool
- First Name
- Josh
- Drive
- 2008 Toyota Aurion ZR6
1998 Mitsubishi Legnum VR4
Yamaha FZ6R
How much of a difference would you expect that procedure to make?
Twin Turbo Upgrade for 6A13TT
- Thread starter naughtika
- Start date
Jakevr4
Leaving Skid Marks
- Location
- Queensland
- First Name
- Jake
- Drive
- 99 Galant vr4 type s (auto),10 Grand Cherokee Overland(auto),91 Rodeo (350 chev th350auto).
335s make 500 USA whp with a turbine wheel clip job on e85 with these little guys.
135's are deep in the 11's with stock turbos.
135's are deep in the 11's with stock turbos.
Yes, someone did, but as you'd expect, it a BMW part so farken expensive. Then you've got the different housings for everything and then everything needs to be made to fit, oil and water lines etc etc @pretzil explain to me why you'd do this??
If a bmw is making 500rwhp on stock turbos there is no way a -10 comp wheel will flow that.
I've hi-flowed our oem turbo with a -12 comp wheel, go read the last few pages of my thread for info
You guys are kidding yourself if think that a -10 compressor wheel will flow 500hp little own 500rwhp
There is no possible way BMW are following the Trust nomenclature for sizes, If that's the case, then my -12's hiflowed will make more than that
We can be pretty confident that they make around 100kW each mine are 30% more flow so 130 so power potential at best 260kW but more likely 240. Mine has cams and headwork so I'm confident it should see 240kW most likely I bit more, once then engine is in we'll see what it will really do
Jakevr4
Leaving Skid Marks
- Location
- Queensland
- First Name
- Jake
- Drive
- 99 Galant vr4 type s (auto),10 Grand Cherokee Overland(auto),91 Rodeo (350 chev th350auto).
Usa whp is often exaggerated was just relaying what I read.
http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.php?5956-*NEW*-Stock-Turbo-World-Record-500rwhp-540rwtq!!!
http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.php?5956-*NEW*-Stock-Turbo-World-Record-500rwhp-540rwtq!!!
Are the bearings, oil, water lines tied into the compressor side? I was hoping the compressor housing would mate up in place of the existing one...
Anyone want to go halves in a set of 4? LOL.
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/padd...parts-transmission/bmw-335i-turbos/1099076061
Dude, have a look at my thread http://www.ozvr4.com/threads/jungles-car-family.1670/page-43
Did you really think that a turbocharger from a different manufacturer, designed for a different car, 15 years apart would just bolt in
Good price depending on their state, if you want to have a tinker.
Had a look, I am amazed there was enough meat in the front turbo to fit that wheel. Is the compressor wheel size the deciding factor for power potential, or does the flow cross section diameter in the compressor spiral also have an effect?
Did you do anything to the wastegates? Bore the hole out bigger?
Hahaha, I own a VR4 too dude, I don't even expect parts from the same manufacturer and same year to bolt up...
I was curious though, once I saw that price.
Effect of A/R on compressor sizing is minimal. Turbine section is another matter.
No I didn't change the watergate hole size. When you see how much it moves under boost I was confident it was ok.
Compressor wheel sizeing determines total output. Turbine wheel sizing determines where in your rpm range that output is produced
No I didn't change the watergate hole size. When you see how much it moves under boost I was confident it was ok.
Compressor wheel sizeing determines total output. Turbine wheel sizing determines where in your rpm range that output is produced
Sorry for my English We have one car here in Russia with BMW turbos installed, and I prepare a pair of them to install to my car at this point. It is required to made adaptors for oil and coolant lines, to use our standard banjo bolts and tubes. Also, i have pre-fl N54 turbos, so it does not have intake pipe on compressor housings, only little plastic clamps. And some kind of adapter needed to connect housing out to stock Y-pipe (may be silicone ones, not sure at this moment, or we`ll do some weld). That`s all. It fits stock intake, but I think to rebuild it in future, for max flow.
First car with these turbos have 315 awhp on dyno, with straight 1,4 bar graph.
We have one car here in Russia with BMW turbos installed, and I prepare a pair of them to install to my car at this point. It is required to made adaptors for oil and coolant lines, to use our standard banjo bolts and tubes. Also, i have pre-fl N54 turbos, so it does not have intake pipe on compressor housings, only little plastic clamps. And some kind of adapter needed to connect housing out to stock Y-pipe (may be silicone ones, not sure at this moment, or we`ll do some weld). That`s all. It fits stock intake, but I think to rebuild it in future, for max flow. First car with these turbos have 315 awhp on dyno, with straight 1,4 bar graph.
Sorry for my English
Now, I had been keeping this quiet until I knew more, but I got mine back from the turbo workshop today so everything is progressing.
Good to hear I'm not the first to think of this.
I too am working on putting BMW turbos into my car.
They are TD03-10s from a 3L straight six twin turbo (335i and 135i).
I have bought whole CHRAs and adapting the standard compressor housing to fit.
VR4:
BMW exducer is 2mm bigger in diameter also.
I too had to have oil line adapters made up, but I am just having a 3/8" bspp thread put on so I can use hose fittings with silicon heater hose.
While it originally looked like it would be a direct fit once the stock compressor housings were high flowed, it turned out BMW use an O-Ring while Mitsubishi use a gasket. Good thing I found a turbo guy who was up to the challenge, he had to make up a spacer/centering ring to make it fit, but the cost did blow out a bit more.
Now they are machined and I am at the stage of mocking up on my spare engine
(yes, I have to tap the extra wastegate holes, the housings were put onto the wrong cores for preferred fitment):
EDIT: Here is something else interesting, the turbine wheels are slightly different, BMW has 11 blades while mitsu has 12 and is slightly thinner.
So, now that I have successfully fitted my high flow turbos, here is a write up explaining what I did, what I learned, and what I would do differently next time.
Unfortunately THIS IS NOT A GUIDE, it is more of a list of things I did.
I purchased 2nd hand CHRAs from the BMW 335i twin turbo 3.0L engine on ebay from the USA.
The exhaust side of the turbine is a perfect match to our housing and V-Band fitting, so it requires absolutely no exhaust modification work, not even removal. This was the major drawcard for an easy upgrade.
This is how the CHRA’s arrive:
Unfortunately those damn oil and coolant fittings are press-fittings don’t match anything you can buy.
The interesting thing is that the BMW front and rear turbos have the coolant lines on a flipped sides for front and rear. So I was able to decide which way to face them.
Not only is the compressor wheel bigger, but the exhaust wheel has a different design. The blade faces are wider, and it has 1 fewer blades, which should let more exhaust through.
Next was to get these new CHRA’s mated to our housings.
This wasn’t as straight forward as it first seemed, while we still have plenty of ‘meat’ to machine to make these fit, it turns out BMW mate the CHRA to the compressor housing with an O-Ring, while Mitsubishi used a gasket…
Fortunately my turbo guy at Munro Racing Turbos is a genius and wouldn’t let this stop him, custom machining up a tiny slither of a centering ring to make them made up.. He also made up a custom oil adapter that pressed into the original hole, and let me use the original hard lines + banjos.
He also did a re-balance of the turbos.
For the coolant fittings, I asked him to just drill and tap the original holes, which were already 15mm diameter, to 3/8” BSPT, so that I could make up my own adapters for the original M12 Banjos. I couldn’t buy 3/8”bsp to M12 adapters anywhere, so I re-drilled a different adapter size and tapped it myself.
In the end these fit nicely and worked well, but originally, like an IDIOT, I used thread tape to seal the adapter... It leaked like a sieve, I had to pull them all back out and did it with thread sealant the 2nd time.
I then used a blowtorch, pipe bender, and brute force to bend the original hard lines to suit. I flared the ends then filed them off to create a ‘bead’. Fortunately they are steel and seemed to take it alright.
"Bolt on upgrades for the VR4 dont exis..."
I used head shield on the rear turbo lines because of how close to the rear exhaust manifold they go.
In the end, these could be fitted in 1 day with 2 people, I did it in 2.5 lazy days working solo. All you really need to do is unbolt the oil and coolant fittings, and undo the V-Band from around the exhaust housing.
Here is the result, more power thru the rev range, 10kW improvement at 3psi less peak boost. The turbos were not the limiting factor, we only held back for fear of head studs etc.
Please note, this is 200kW through the automatic box, which seems to lose 30-40kW compared to equivalent manuals.
Discussion:
All up, this upgrade came to about $800 including parts, machining, balancing, fittings, hose, clamps etc. (although because he had already quoted me before getting to learn about the job, the turbo guy said it would cost more to do the same next time lol, I got a bargain)
The other issue is the amount of stuffing around I had to do to figure out how to do this.
If I was to do it again, I wouldn’t do it this way. I would buy the BMW CHRAs, have them ripped apart, and slotted into our bearing housings with a rebuild. That way the original coolant lines etc would all match exactly with 0 custom work on my part.
THE SHAFTS ARE IDENTICAL, so anyone talking about high flows breaking shafts, BMW already considers these wheels matched and suitable.
If you wanted to do it with just a pure swap of the compressor wheel, using our original exhaust wheel and shaft, it would only take a small amount of machining to fit the wheel:
Unfortunately THIS IS NOT A GUIDE, it is more of a list of things I did.
I purchased 2nd hand CHRAs from the BMW 335i twin turbo 3.0L engine on ebay from the USA.
The exhaust side of the turbine is a perfect match to our housing and V-Band fitting, so it requires absolutely no exhaust modification work, not even removal. This was the major drawcard for an easy upgrade.
This is how the CHRA’s arrive:
Unfortunately those damn oil and coolant fittings are press-fittings don’t match anything you can buy.
The interesting thing is that the BMW front and rear turbos have the coolant lines on a flipped sides for front and rear. So I was able to decide which way to face them.
Not only is the compressor wheel bigger, but the exhaust wheel has a different design. The blade faces are wider, and it has 1 fewer blades, which should let more exhaust through.
Next was to get these new CHRA’s mated to our housings.
This wasn’t as straight forward as it first seemed, while we still have plenty of ‘meat’ to machine to make these fit, it turns out BMW mate the CHRA to the compressor housing with an O-Ring, while Mitsubishi used a gasket…
Fortunately my turbo guy at Munro Racing Turbos is a genius and wouldn’t let this stop him, custom machining up a tiny slither of a centering ring to make them made up.. He also made up a custom oil adapter that pressed into the original hole, and let me use the original hard lines + banjos.
He also did a re-balance of the turbos.
For the coolant fittings, I asked him to just drill and tap the original holes, which were already 15mm diameter, to 3/8” BSPT, so that I could make up my own adapters for the original M12 Banjos. I couldn’t buy 3/8”bsp to M12 adapters anywhere, so I re-drilled a different adapter size and tapped it myself.
In the end these fit nicely and worked well, but originally, like an IDIOT, I used thread tape to seal the adapter... It leaked like a sieve, I had to pull them all back out and did it with thread sealant the 2nd time.
I then used a blowtorch, pipe bender, and brute force to bend the original hard lines to suit. I flared the ends then filed them off to create a ‘bead’. Fortunately they are steel and seemed to take it alright.
"Bolt on upgrades for the VR4 dont exis..."
I used head shield on the rear turbo lines because of how close to the rear exhaust manifold they go.
In the end, these could be fitted in 1 day with 2 people, I did it in 2.5 lazy days working solo. All you really need to do is unbolt the oil and coolant fittings, and undo the V-Band from around the exhaust housing.
Here is the result, more power thru the rev range, 10kW improvement at 3psi less peak boost. The turbos were not the limiting factor, we only held back for fear of head studs etc.
Please note, this is 200kW through the automatic box, which seems to lose 30-40kW compared to equivalent manuals.
Discussion:
All up, this upgrade came to about $800 including parts, machining, balancing, fittings, hose, clamps etc. (although because he had already quoted me before getting to learn about the job, the turbo guy said it would cost more to do the same next time lol, I got a bargain)
The other issue is the amount of stuffing around I had to do to figure out how to do this.
If I was to do it again, I wouldn’t do it this way. I would buy the BMW CHRAs, have them ripped apart, and slotted into our bearing housings with a rebuild. That way the original coolant lines etc would all match exactly with 0 custom work on my part.
THE SHAFTS ARE IDENTICAL, so anyone talking about high flows breaking shafts, BMW already considers these wheels matched and suitable.
If you wanted to do it with just a pure swap of the compressor wheel, using our original exhaust wheel and shaft, it would only take a small amount of machining to fit the wheel:
I have noticed a very slight increase in lag, compared to 0 lag with the old turbos anyway.
But once it comes on, it comes on hard. I am hoping to get it out to the drag strip to know for sure.
There is a lot more left in the turbos, if you have upgraded your head studs, and not already pushing coolant like I was, you could get much more out of them I would think.
This was all done just to prove it was possible. And it is.
I would not recommend this to people who aren't interested in dyno figures or drag times, I do kind of miss the old responsiveness, but that can be addressed further tune options.
But this tiny lag bothering me at all is hilarious compared to the difference a big single or larger twins would make.
But as a relatively cheap upgrade (budget about $1400 to do this properly with a rebuild etc), but considering people pay upwards of $1000 for a set of coilpacks, I think it is quite cheap.
Most importantly IT IS VERY EASY, other turbo upgrades involve full exhaust fabrication work, often an engine out job. I didn't even have the risk of stripping an exhaust stud.
