Twin Turbo Upgrade for 6A13TT

[TME_Steve]

lost my earlier reply somehow. Maybe I'm missing something but are you seriously asking if 2x td03-7t turbo's can make 450whp?

Max boost? you can get 2 bar of boost out of them, maybe more but not at many revs. a turbo is an air pump at the end of the day. it can raise pressure heaps at a certain airflow but you can't get it's maximum airflow and it's maximum pressure increase at the same time.

to get 450whp, you're gonna need about 150whp (maybe more) of air from somewhere other than those turbo's. unless you either pressurise the air before it gets to them (compound turbo) or use the world's happiest dyno.

you're talking 100awkw more than our best efforts on e85. even 60kw more than larrys td04s, (and larrys also correlates with correlates with carl's 310kw or whatever it was on a hub dyno). there's no magic. they don't flow enough.

 

[TME_Steve]

i highly doubt you will get 450hp at the wheels running stock td03's Even if you went td04s off a wrx I don't think you will get the power your chasing.

if the engine flowed enough you might. a wrx with a td04 can make 160 on 98, 180 on e85 if it's perfect but it has 2 litres, not 1.25

 

[jungle]

I doubt this. Trotty got 230kw on stocks before heads lifted didn't he? You should have no problem with 250.

I'm talking pump fuel not E85

How did you calculate 30% anyway? What are the diameters of yours?

I didn't calculate anything. Mr Kinagawa who performed the hi flow selected them after discussion with me. He told me the new wheel would be a 30% flow increase over the oem wheel. Pretty simple really

 

[pretzil]

I'm talking pump fuel not E85

I get my ethanol fuel from a pump...

I didn't calculate anything. Mr Kinagawa who performed the hi flow selected them after discussion with me. He told me the new wheel would be a 30% flow increase over the oem wheel. Pretty simple really

Okay, fair enough, an expert told you so. That's why I was asking, its not exactly a simple calculation is all.

 

[ersanalamin]

You can read all about it here. https://www.ozvr4.com/threads/larrys-vr4.15614/ It delivers about 270awkw ATM ( 463 PS) . Having problems with getting air through the engine at high RPM. Boost is Ok.

how much is the boost when you reach 270awkw?

 

[lateshow]

The info is all there (although have to make a better boost plot). Boost first rises to 1.1 bar with my mbc (restricting torque there) after that ecu controls the stock valve and max boost was 1.24 bar somewhere between 6000-6500 rpm

 

[jungle]

I get my ethanol fuel from a pump...


Okay, fair enough, an expert told you so. That's why I was asking, its not exactly a simple calculation is all.

98 dude

 

[pretzil]

98 dude

Ah, thought you might have meant diesel...

 

[ersanalamin]

So, now that I have successfully fitted my high flow turbos, here is a write up explaining what I did, what I learned, and what I would do differently next time.

Unfortunately THIS IS NOT A GUIDE, it is more of a list of things I did.

I purchased 2nd hand CHRAs from the BMW 335i twin turbo 3.0L engine on ebay from the USA.

The exhaust side of the turbine is a perfect match to our housing and V-Band fitting, so it requires absolutely no exhaust modification work, not even removal. This was the major drawcard for an easy upgrade.

This is how the CHRA’s arrive:
Unfortunately those damn oil and coolant fittings are press-fittings don’t match anything you can buy.

View attachment 45388

The interesting thing is that the BMW front and rear turbos have the coolant lines on a flipped sides for front and rear. So I was able to decide which way to face them.

Not only is the compressor wheel bigger, but the exhaust wheel has a different design. The blade faces are wider, and it has 1 fewer blades, which should let more exhaust through.

Next was to get these new CHRA’s mated to our housings.
This wasn’t as straight forward as it first seemed, while we still have plenty of ‘meat’ to machine to make these fit, it turns out BMW mate the CHRA to the compressor housing with an O-Ring, while Mitsubishi used a gasket…

Fortunately my turbo guy at Munro Racing Turbos is a genius and wouldn’t let this stop him, custom machining up a tiny slither of a centering ring to make them made up.. He also made up a custom oil adapter that pressed into the original hole, and let me use the original hard lines + banjos.
He also did a re-balance of the turbos.

View attachment 45391

For the coolant fittings, I asked him to just drill and tap the original holes, which were already 15mm diameter, to 3/8” BSPT, so that I could make up my own adapters for the original M12 Banjos. I couldn’t buy 3/8”bsp to M12 adapters anywhere, so I re-drilled a different adapter size and tapped it myself.
In the end these fit nicely and worked well, but originally, like an IDIOT, I used thread tape to seal the adapter... It leaked like a sieve, I had to pull them all back out and did it with thread sealant the 2nd time.

View attachment 45393

I then used a blowtorch, pipe bender, and brute force to bend the original hard lines to suit. I flared the ends then filed them off to create a ‘bead’. Fortunately they are steel and seemed to take it alright.

View attachment 45395

View attachment 45397

"Bolt on upgrades for the VR4 dont exis..."

View attachment 45398

I used head shield on the rear turbo lines because of how close to the rear exhaust manifold they go.

In the end, these could be fitted in 1 day with 2 people, I did it in 2.5 lazy days working solo. All you really need to do is unbolt the oil and coolant fittings, and undo the V-Band from around the exhaust housing.

Here is the result, more power thru the rev range, 10kW improvement at 3psi less peak boost. The turbos were not the limiting factor, we only held back for fear of head studs etc.

Please note, this is 200kW through the automatic box, which seems to lose 30-40kW compared to equivalent manuals.

View attachment 45399

Discussion:
All up, this upgrade came to about $800 including parts, machining, balancing, fittings, hose, clamps etc. (although because he had already quoted me before getting to learn about the job, the turbo guy said it would cost more to do the same next time lol, I got a bargain)

The other issue is the amount of stuffing around I had to do to figure out how to do this.
If I was to do it again, I wouldn’t do it this way. I would buy the BMW CHRAs, have them ripped apart, and slotted into our bearing housings with a rebuild. That way the original coolant lines etc would all match exactly with 0 custom work on my part.

THE SHAFTS ARE IDENTICAL, so anyone talking about high flows breaking shafts, BMW already considers these wheels matched and suitable.

View attachment 45403

If you wanted to do it with just a pure swap of the compressor wheel, using our original exhaust wheel and shaft, it would only take a small amount of machining to fit the wheel:

View attachment 45401

didnt realize the stock bmw comp wheel has extended tip, what is diameter of extended tip?
could you please ask your machining comp housing, did he figure it out the max diameter custom comp wheel that will still fit?
1. will this still fit?
http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/billetturbocompressorwheelbmwn54335i535i735itrim603557460mm66.aspx

or the bigger one still fit?
2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Bille...3-38-48-mm-6-6-Performance-Type-/181873569119

according to turbo lab, whenever possible turbine wheel size should match the comp size. the bigger comp size will be more generate turbo surge.

hence the decision just to get bigger comp wheel not always right. turbo lab also explain the less the turbin wheel blade is better. so i interested to get bmw less blade turbin wheel, .are you sure the bmw 11 blade turbine has rh thread?

 

[smohekey]

You should probably be talking directly to a local turbo specialist as you're going to need machining done by the sounds of things, and you'll want the person doing the work to be on board with it.

 

[pretzil]

didnt realize the stock bmw comp wheel has extended tip, what is diameter of extended tip?

Never said they do, I don't think they do:

could you please ask your machining comp housing, did he figure it out the max diameter custom comp wheel that will still fit?

Why would he have done that? He just took what I gave him and put it in (giggity)

1. will this still fit?
http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/billetturbocompressorwheelbmwn54335i535i735itrim603557460mm66.aspx
or the bigger one still fit?
2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Billet-Compressor-Wheel-BMW-VOLVO-TD03-38-48-mm-6-6-Performance-Type-/181873569119

No idea, you tell me.

according to turbo lab, whenever possible turbine wheel size should match the comp size. the bigger comp size will be more generate turbo surge.
hence the decision just to get bigger comp wheel not always right.

Is turbo lab a website? Have a link? Is this a comment on mine? I don't understand what you are getting at.
They really should have told mitsubishi, or any other turbo maker, Comp wheels being different to Turbine is the basis for why there are TD04-7, TD04-9, TD04-11 etc. Different match ups of Comp wheel with the same Turbine wheel.

turbo lab also explain the less the turbin wheel blade is better. so i interested to get bmw less blade turbin wheel, .are you sure the bmw 11 blade turbine has rh thread?

Never said the BMW had RH thread, my BMW ones had LH
[SOME?] mitsubishi do, mine had RH threads.

 

[ersanalamin]

lost my earlier reply somehow. Maybe I'm missing something but are you seriously asking if 2x td03-7t turbo's can make 450whp?

Max boost? you can get 2 bar of boost out of them, maybe more but not at many revs. a turbo is an air pump at the end of the day. it can raise pressure heaps at a certain airflow but you can't get it's maximum airflow and it's maximum pressure increase at the same time.

to get 450whp, you're gonna need about 150whp (maybe more) of air from somewhere other than those turbo's. unless you either pressurise the air before it gets to them (compound turbo) or use the world's happiest dyno.

you're talking 100awkw more than our best efforts on e85. even 60kw more than larrys td04s, (and larrys also correlates with correlates with carl's 310kw or whatever it was on a hub dyno). there's no magic. they don't flow enough.

Thanks steve, will kept in mind your suggestion

 

[ersanalamin]

Never said they do, I don't think they do:

View attachment 45483

View attachment 45484

Why would he have done that? He just took what I gave him and put it in (giggity)


No idea, you tell me.


Is turbo lab a website? Have a link? Is this a comment on mine? I don't understand what you are getting at.
They really should have told mitsubishi, or any other turbo maker, Comp wheels being different to Turbine is the basis for why there are TD04-7, TD04-9, TD04-11 etc. Different match ups of Comp wheel with the same Turbine wheel.


Never said the BMW had RH thread, my BMW ones had LH
[SOME?] mitsubishi do, mine had RH threads.

View attachment 45485

View attachment 45486

Okay then, BTW how do you feel the turbo lag. is it still kick in 2500-3000 rpm?

 

[pretzil]

Yes, I feel some turbo lag now, with the auto I never experienced any once I had ethanol, I think it is still much less turbo lag than any other turbo car though.
I noticed it doing launches at the drag strip, used to just give half throttle and have 10psi easy, now I have to stand on it to get it to build.

 

[ersanalamin]

Yes, I feel some turbo lag now, with the auto I never experienced any once I had ethanol, I think it is still much less turbo lag than any other turbo car though.
I noticed it doing launches at the drag strip, used to just give half throttle and have 10psi easy, now I have to stand on it to get it to build.

I see now, less turbin blade mean lower low rpm respond than stock but higher hi rpm respond. if we aim for higher hp then less turbin wheel blade is better.

seems the turbo spool later than stock, perhaps the turbo lag less feel with m/t tranny?

I tempted to buy bmw chra and swap the whole chra internal itu vr4 turbo.

 

[ersanalamin]

Yes, I feel some turbo lag now, with the auto I never experienced any once I had ethanol, I think it is still much less turbo lag than any other turbo car though.
I noticed it doing launches at the drag strip, used to just give half throttle and have 10psi easy, now I have to stand on it to get it to build.

Hi Rick, Any dyno graphic before and after turbo upgrading?

http://turbolabofamerica.com/turbo-upgrade-2/

Having less turbin wheel blade meaning you should start to feel turbo lag but better air flow rate at hi rpm. I mean thats not entirely turbo lag, the fact is your car power curve should shifted. but how further the shift is unknown. if you tried with billet comp wheel maybe you would experience lesser lag.

curious to see the resulf of simon @jungle hi flow turbo too.

I havent decide which turbine wheel I am going to use, go with bmw 11 turbin blade or stay with stock till i figure it out hows the power curve shift

 

[pretzil]

Hi Rick, Any dyno graphic before and after turbo upgrading?

Page 4 of this thread.
Its an auto, so ignore anything under the 3800rpm mark, that is slippage.

 

[ersanalamin]

Page 4 of this thread.
Its an auto, so ignore anything under the 3800rpm mark, that is slippage.

Pretty impressive result, more power on almost every rpm with less boost and peak power shift to 6000 rpm. based on the graph you should not feel turbo lag, i wonder how do you feel the lag came from?

 

[pretzil]

Pretty impressive result, more power on almost every rpm with less boost and peak power shift to 6000 rpm. based on the graph you should not feel turbo lag, i wonder how do you feel the lag came from?

The same turbos on a manual might show a different story though.
It also could be partly caused by the feeling from having 3psi less boost in 1st and 2nd gear than I used to, the only gears where the turbos could actually hold peak boost long enough to notice.
'Lag' was definitely noticeable at the drag strip though, it was much harder to build boost before launching with the stock stall converter than it used to be.

 

[ersanalamin]

The same turbos on a manual might show a different story though.
It also could be partly caused by the feeling from having 3psi less boost in 1st and 2nd gear than I used to, the only gears where the turbos could actually hold peak boost long enough to notice.
'Lag' was definitely noticeable at the drag strip though, it was much harder to build boost before launching with the stock stall converter than it used to be.

based on comp wheel trim data your mods should add 20% flow rate, but I i dont know how the less turbin wheel blade played a role in this upgrade (turbolab said less turbin blade better for more flow rate, minimize turbo surge and build turbo boost but still keep faster spool), maybe the turbo lag you felt, but shift to further peak power curve, thats why i am waiting on simon result because he use stock turbin wheel and I am going to use billet td03-10t comp wheel like yours with extend tip (exducer 49,50mm)